The Heavens Declare the Glory of God, the Firmament the Work of His Hand

The Heavens Declare the Glory of God, the Firmament the Work of His Hand

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Saturday, September 13, 2014

A dear Jewish friend tells me I should no longer call myself “Christian.”

I was shocked and concerned that my Christian witness had been less than loving and kind to my non-believing friend until I realized what he was saying.

The RCC call themselves “Christian,” - he remembers the Crusades. Joel Osteen, Ken Copeland T.D Jakes…call themselves Christian yet teach another gospel than that found in scripture. The non-believing among us know these movers and shakers in the evangelical world and they want no part of Christianity or Christians. Mormons, JW consider themselves “Christian” yet clearly their beliefs are far from the teachings of Paul. My friend read of Senator Ted Cruz being booed “by Christians.” He watches the “Christian” world acting less than Christian and grows ever and ever more apprehensive toward Christians. My friend knows scripture, perhaps better than many professing "Christians." To say he does not trust Christians would be an understatement. My vain attempts at shedding light into his darkness seem to have gone nowhere. Quoting scripture, lengthy discussions have been ineffective in changing his mind. His mind is made up and there is nothing “I” can do.

It breaks my heart when I realize that it is those called by His Name who are the greatest hindrance to the spreading of the gospel message. For every true Bible believing Blood bought believer, for every follower of Jesus Christ there are scores that are Christian in name only.

But we are not without hope:

There are upwards of two billion professing Christians in the world, but the true church is minuscule compared to the number professing a biblical faith with little or no evidence to back up their claims. But the church does exist - Jesus promised in Matthew 16:18 “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

We must keep witnessing, sharing and standing on the promises of God.

29 comments:

  1. Good post Ali. This is why we need to get away from labels; I'm not saying 'Christian' is a bad label, it just doesn't hold the same meaning - it's now 'all inclusive'. We are followers of the Lamb, twice born by His power according to grace. Oftentimes people ask me what 'religion' I am, or what church I attend. I steer them away from this pre-conceived, segregated mindset and simply reply, 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ'. We must profess the crucified Christ, the second in the Godhead. Such a claim will immediately distinguish us from the Mormon, JW, and many other dead religions. We do not boast in Mary, a sinner like us who was in need of a Savior. This too will separate us from the dead religion of the RCC. We live in a time when we must choose words carefully and explain more thoroughly Christ and His gospel. Actually, it's always been that way hasn't it?

    Yes, we must keep witnessing, sharing, and standing on the promises of God; we also must boldly profess His truth to a lost and dying world that is drawing closer to its end.

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  2. I Am A Follower Of Jesus Christ. - this will be my response as well from this point forward. Thx Lyn!!

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  3. My only problem with the new tag of "Christ followers" is that many followed Him yet never accepted him as their Savior.

    I will stand firm on the name "Christian." As I have told many people, don't blame the true faith for the acts of those who are not true Christians, nor should you blame the faith for those true Christians who sin and act out of the Christian character.

    It is quite easy to explain the difference between true Christians and the cults, and I consider Romanism to be quite cultish.

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    1. My problem with this statement -"is that many followed Him yet never accepted him as their Savior." is that it isn't found in the Bible. The Bible commands sinners to repent and believe/trust in Christ, it isn't a choice. This is partly why we have so many who make a verbal profession, claim to be Christian, and yet, have never been born again by God. They are convinced their acceptance of Christ is genuine and all that's needed. We must get back to proclaiming the doctrines of grace, the Gospel has been cheapened to nothing more than man accepting or rejecting Jesus. May we not speak words like 'accepting Jesus' or 'making a decision' - words that cannot be found in the anywhere in the Bible.

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    2. Excuse me?!?!? We do indeed find that in Scripture. People followed Christ all around just for the miracles, etc. How many of the same ones turned on Him at the end? Just "following" Christ does not make one a believer.

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    3. Glenn, perhaps you did not read my comment closely enough, I never said the bible doesn't support the idea of people who follow Christ, I stated that 'accepting Him as their Savior' is not found in the Bible. I encourage you to read my comment again for better clarity.
      Claiming one has 'accepted' Christ does not make one a believer as well, nor can that terminology be supported with Scripture.

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    4. Lyn,
      Perhaps your grammar needs to be better. You said:
      My problem with this statement -"is that many followed Him yet never accepted him as their Savior." is that it isn't found in the Bible.

      My understanding of this statement is that you are saying that people following Jesus yet never accepting him "as their savior” is not something found in Scripture. The fact that people followed Jesus and yet did not accept the fact that he was the Messiah, the Son of God who could save them from their sins, is everywhere found in the Gospels. To either accept that Christ is the Savior or deny that He is the savior are the only two choices. There is no in between.

      Now, many complain, as do I, that nowhere in the Bible is there such a thing as “accepting Christ in one’s heart,” but that isn’t the context of my statement. You must accept the fact that Jesus is your savior. But you don’t “accept” him “into your heart.” You accept the reality and place your faith in Christ as the one who paid for your sin. And, by the way, to accept something can also be synonymous with receiving something - another use of the word “accept.” We are told by John that “as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.”

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    5. Glenn,

      Let me try this again. To say 'accept Jesus'...is not found in the Bible. We do not accept Him, this 'free will' type thinking is nowhere taught in the Bible. The Bible does not teach 'choice', as you call it. The Bible commands, it doesn't give man the option to accept or reject. Only those born again, by God, will believe. Note what Christ says, 'unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God'. To 'see' means to perceive, understand. No one will understand spiritual matters, including the Gospel, unless God rebirths them. To be born again is a supernatural work of God, not a result of man's choice, but of God's power.
      To receive Christ is to embrace Him, to 'aggressively lay hold of'; as if it were a life line. Faith is a gift from God, it isn't something we possess on our own. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches this truth. How is it sinners are able to 'receive' Christ? Is it because, as you say, they 'accept', or, is it because, as the Bible teaches, God gifts them with faith, repentance, and all that is necessary to believe? I do not find the phrase 'accept Jesus' anywhere in my Bible.

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    6. Lynn,
      I guess your problem is you are looking at it from Calvinist glasses. You reject the plain teaching of Scripture which says we CAN accept that Christ is the Messiah or we can deny that he is the messiah. We can accept his teachings as true or we can deny them. We can accept that God provided a way of salvation or we can deny it. That choice is plainly there no matter how much you want to deny it.

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    7. Glenn,
      How is stating 'accept Jesus' calvinist?! Show me, from Scripture, where it explicitly states that a sinner can 'accept Christ', then we'll go from there.

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    8. Lyn,
      Only those born again, by God, will believe. This is Calvinist - the cart before the horse. The claim that God chooses who to regenerate with the Holy Spirit so they are able to believe - special election.

      The Bible says the person believes and is THEN born again. Faith comes first.

      You seem to be having a problem with my use of the word "accept" because you are not understanding what I am saying and you go right back to the idea of "accepting Jesus" in the vein of "accepting Jesus into your heart" nonsense. Look at what I am writing, not what you think.

      Do you "accept" the Bible as the Word of God or do you "deny" that the Bible is the Word of God? This statement is analogous to saying one can either accept that Jesus is the Savior, the Messiah, the Son of God, or they can deny that he is the savior, the Messiah, the Son of God. This acceptance of a fact is possible and is demonstrated as possible throughout the Bible, and yet you argue that it isn't because you go back with your idea that I'm saying someone can "accept Christ" as in "accepting Christ into your heart" nonsense rather than just accepting the fact of his identity.

      Now, the Scripture also says that a sinner can come to faith in Christ as his savior, while the Calvinist says he can't unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates him. That is a different subject and I don't want to pursue it here, but I'm trying to show you the contrast between what you are saying I am saying and what I am really saying.

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    9. Glenn,
      you still have not given me scriptural proof that sinners can 'accept Jesus'.
      You say a sinner can come to faith in Christ on his own, and yet, God says otherwise - 'Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)'- Ephesians 2:5
      Also, take note of Ephesians 2:8-9 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast'. The phrase 'and that' is a demonstrative neuter pronoun, which means it doesn't point to any one particular thing. Instead, the grammatical sentence construction is that 'and that' points to ALL that precedes it - 'grace, faith, saved'. Grace, faith, saved are 'not of works', they are a gift of God...why? So NO MAN may boast that he/she 'did something' to get saved, like make their own decision. The clearest teaching on this is presented here - http://youtu.be/o3dodm97SY4

      Ezekiel 36 tells us how God saves us as well, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Notice the 'I's here Glenn, it is God who regenerates, for the ' But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' 1 Cor. 2:14. Why do you give credit to Calvin for what God Himself teaches? The doctrines of grace were written throughout the Bible by God the Spirit.
      Regeneration precedes faith Glenn, that is why Christ told Nicodemus, 'unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God'. Wasn't Nicodemus a religious leader of his day? Yet, Christ tells him this; why? To 'see' means to understand, perceive. No one can understand spiritual truths unless they are FIRST born again, or as the Greek states literally, 'born from above'. {source - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-3.htm}

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  4. We live in difficult times. His remnant WILL shine and bring glory to His Name regardless of the tag(s) attached to us.

    In total agreement about the RCC as well as JW, LDS and many others. Often hard to distinguish the wheat from the chaff, especially for a non-believer like my friend.

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  5. Lyn,

    You are still not understanding, NOT comprehending and not reading what I said. You are reading what you want to read. Again, you are having a problem with the word "accept," like someone has burned you with it. The Bible certainly points from O.T. to N.T. that people can either accept the God of the Bible as their God or reject him, that they can either accept that Christ is the Son of God or reject Him as such. That choice is possible.

    Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again to enter the kingdom - placing one's faith in Christ as the Savior, the Messiah, is what regenerates the person to make them born again.

    In Ephesians 2:8-9, it is salvation which is the gift through God's mercy because of our faith. Our faith is not the gift. Faith is not works or else Paul would not have contrasted the two so often.

    You are indeed preaching Calvinism. But it has nothing to do with my statement that people can either accept that Christ is who he claims to be or they can reject that.

    As for the rest of your Calvinistic interpretation of the Bible, my response is here: http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2013/02/i-am-not-calvinist.html

    I demonstrate from Scripture that people, i.e., sinners, can indeed make the choice to choose for Christ or not. God didn't make pre-programmed robots. I'm finished with this conversation; it is not going anywhere.

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  6. Glenn, you keep saying this, "The Bible certainly points from O.T. to N.T. that people can either accept the God of the Bible as their God or reject him, that they can either accept that Christ is the Son of God or reject Him as such. That choice is possible." but you fail to show me WHERE I find it in the Bible!

    As for Ephesians 8, I have given you a clear teaching from the original text, including the proper Greek grammatical construction of the sentence. All you can say is 'calvin, calvin, calvin.' It's a shame Calvin gets both credit and blame for what God teaches, it's also a shame some hold to a free will theology, with no scriptural support. I suppose labeling is easier than actually proving your point from His holy word.

    BTW, I am not a calvinist either. I gave you no Calvin commentary, nor did I once refer to him. This is your automatic accusative response because you reject the clear doctrinal teachings of the doctrines of grace throughout the Bible. I present scripture, your rebuttal is 'calvin'. That's not how one should debate truth Glenn. Rightly dividing means we come to Scripture with no pre-supposed ideas and let scripture interpret scripture.

    One last note, you say "I demonstrate from Scripture that people, i.e., sinners, can indeed make the choice to choose for Christ or not" ...Chapter and verse please? As for your blog post, I won't bother, because I disagree with MUCH of what Calvin taught and did.

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  7. Lyn,
    "Doctrines of Grace" is Calvinist. Actually they came from Augustine. You are parroting Calvinism whether you know it or not.

    My article gives you all the passages you requested. If you won't look at it, then don't accuse me of not providing the passages.

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    1. Actually, you are incorrect Glenn. The Bible teaches that all are in bondage to sin - John 8:34, Jeremiah 17:9 Hebrews 2:15. Notice, in Jeremiah 17:9 it states this, " The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" 'Heart' is defined as 'inner man, mind, will, heart'. Deceitful is defined as 'crooked, polluted'. Desperately wicked is defined as 'incurable, sick, woeful'. These are strong words that describe the inner man, including the will; all of which is incurable. How is it you claim one can accept Christ apart from God's regenerating power when His word says your inner man is so sick you can't possibly do as you claim? Sin has tainted us so much, it permeates through us; it is so rooted in our nature, our love of it is embedded deep within. Only the power of God can open our eyes to the truth of our wickedness, which brings us to see our need for a Savior. Your free will gospel does not rightly show how wicked man truly is, so how can one see their desperate need for Christ when they are told they only need to accept or reject Him? What an accursed gospel this is! How God's grace is made light of and all but eliminated in such an accursed gospel!


      Christ himself states that man loves darkness more than light, which is why he will not come. This text speaks volumes, ""No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."—John 6:44 How is it you claim one can 'accept Christ' when God himself says you cannot come unless drawn by Him?
      "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:40 Spurgeon rightly states " and as long as that "ye will not come' stands on record in Holy Scripture, we shall not be brought to believe in any doctrine of the freedom of the human will."

      Man hasn't the ability to free himself from sin's deadly grip. Christ states that He frees us - John 8:36 Galatians 5:1. God must first 'quicken' as Ephesians 2:1, 5 states, as well as John 5:21, John 6:63. God does indeed elect those He chooses to save - "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13. See also Romans 9:11, and Ephesians 1:4-5. Christ died for His elect, for He was the propitiation for our sins. God's wrath was satisfied, which is what propitiation means. That also means there is no more wrath waiting; for if God poured out all His wrath on His Son, and, as some claim, Christ died for all, that would mean those who are left in their sins would not face God's wrath correct? Do you see the problem now in unlimited atonement? Sinners are saved by grace, just as the Bible teaches in Ephesians 2:5,8; Acts 15:11, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:5.
      Notice, nowhere is Augustine or Calvin accredited with these writings, for they come straight from God's holy word, inspired by His Spirit.
      If you have scriptures that support a sinner can 'accept Jesus', feel free to list them briefly here - chapter and verse is all I ask. I don't need to read a post about Calvin or Augustine, for these men are fallible. It's shameful that your heart is so hardened to biblical truth that you must make false accusations and give credit to fallible men for what God the Spirit has spoken in His word. I don't understand your repeated accusations that I am 'parroting' Calvin. Nothing was presented here from him, only verses from the Bible which were laid out before you.

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    2. Spoken like a true Calvinist/Augustinian. Make the scriptures say what you want rather than what they say. It was indeed first Augustine who taught this way, and Calvin just parroted it. Welcome to Reformed theology. I'll stick to Bible theology, thank you.

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    3. It's so sad that, instead of debating from Scripture, you continually resort to name calling and labeling me, even though I presented ONLY the word of God. I backed the doctrines of grace with scripture, you respond with childish name calling and unfounded accusations. That isn't characteristic of a child of God now is it? We are to be kind to one another, and love one another. Instead, you repeatedly point to a man that I admitted I have NEVER read, studied, nor quoted. For what it's worth, that's typical of those who hold to free will theology. They cannot support their theology with scripture, so they attack, call names, and falsely accuse. Rinse, lather, repeat....

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    4. Actually, spoken like a true follower of Christ who isn't afraid to dig into His word and let the Scriptures speak for themselves. I too used to believe in 'free will', that is until God taught me otherwise. I praise God that He keeps me 'teachable', not close-minded or resistant to what His word actually says. Praise God for study tools like biblehub.com, greek and hebrew lexicons, strong's concordance, and a willingness to learn, not being afraid of being proven wrong.

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  8. Lyn,

    I made my argument from Scripture in my article, demonstrating that your "doctrines of grace" (a name made up by the Calvinists) are not what the Bible says. Your whole argument is virtually word-for-word the same as every Calvinist I have encountered. It isn't "name-calling" to identify your specific doctrinal stance. There is no way you can come to the conclusions, with the specific argument you make, without having studied Calvinist material. You won't find it in Scripture, nor will you find it in the writings of the Ante-Nicene fathers who were around prior to Augustine. Augustine is the origin of your particular theological view, which makes man incapable of any moral choices, incapable of deciding to choose to follow Christ or not. You don't have to read Calvin to study "Reformed" theology. You demonstrated by your argument that you have indeed studied/read Calvinist teachers. Free will choices is the difference between being a human or being a robot. God didn't make robots. If you want to believe so, more power to you. I will stick to what the Bible says.

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  9. Ali,
    It is sad, but your Jewish friend is more right than most would care to consider. Christendom has become a huge gray blob that includes all comers. Confusion rules the day in nearly all churches and especially their pulpits. The good thing is that God is not confused, He knows whom He has chosen and will keep them-no matter what. Today's fantasy theology includes the nonsense exhibited on this thread by Mr. Chatfield. Somehow the will of man has escaped the ravages and death of the fall and is said to be left intact, viable, and able to determine one's own fate. This teaching is put forth by those who, in willful rebellion, have chosen to ignore the command of God to repent (because that is all an unregenerate will can do-rebel); ignore the clear teaching of the Scriptures; all the while not realizing that their own words will used against them in the judgment pronounced on them. It is popular to preach this free-will fantasy doctrine because it gives man the illusion of having the upper hand over God Himself. It leads to further nonsense that Christ died for all men, everywhere, of all time. If that be the case then His "plan of salvation" is a miserable failure. It eventually ends up that all of humanity is forever in heaven after all is said and done. Wow! Not only have these deluded ones redacted all of the Scriptures that don't fir their fantasies, but they have rewritten the rest of the Bible to their liking. Shame on you, Glenn E. Chatfield, you are supposed to know better. Today is a good day to repent. Has your stoney heart been replaced with one of flesh or will you continue to be in open rebellion against the One whom you claim to love and serve?

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  10. Darrel,

    So the will of man is totally depraved? I wonder why so many Bible verses demand that mankind make a free will choice about God and Christ, that man must seek God, etc

    Does man have the ability to make free-will moral choices for God? The Bible makes it plain that man does indeed have this ability:

    Josh. 24:15: Choose to serve God or not to serve God
    2 Chron. 15:2 – “If you seek him…but if you forsake him” indicates choice
    Ezra 8:22 – “everyone who looks to him” vs “all who forsake him” indicates choice
    Ps. 10:4 – “does not” indicates choice not to seek God.
    Ps. 86:5 – one chooses whether to call on God
    Jeremiah 29:13 – choice of seeking God
    Mark 16:16 – “whoever believes” and “whoever will not believe” indicates choice between the two
    Luke 8:12 - The devil must prevent them from believing
    John 1:12 – choice to receive or not
    John 3:16-18 – “whoever believes” vs “whoever does not believe” indicates choice
    John 3:36 – “whoever believes” vs “whoever rejects” indicates choice
    John 5:24 – “whoever…believes” is a choice
    John 5:40 – “you refuse to come to me”; refusal is a choice
    John 20:31 – “by believing” indicates choice
    Acts 16:31 – “Believe…” is choice
    Acts 17:30 – choice of repenting
    Rom. 1:16 – “to everyone who believes” makes it a matter of choice
    1 Cor. 15:1-2 – the Gospel was received and taken a stand for, i.e. choice
    2 Cor. 4:4 – Unbelievers must be blinded so they can’t choose
    1 Tim. 1:16 – “those who would believe” vs those who wouldn’t is choice
    Heb. 11:6 – must believe God exists, which means he must have the ability to believe or not
    1 Pet. 3:1 – the husband has a choice to become a believer
    Rev. 22:17 – “whoever wishes” indicates choice

    Can man seek God on his own? The Bible says he can:

    Deut. 4:29 - "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him,
    if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."
    1 Chron. 16:11 – “seek his face”
    1 Chron. 28:9 - “If you seek Him, He will be found by you”
    2 Chron. 15:2 – “If you seek him…” Many more in 2 Chron.
    Ps. 9:10 – “those who seek you”
    Ps. 22:26 – “they who seek the Lord”
    Ps. 34:10 – “those who seek the Lord”
    Ps. 40:16 – “all who seek you”
    Ps. 69:6 – “may those who seek you”
    Ps. 119:10 – “I seek you with all my heart”
    Is. 55:6 - “Seek the Lord while He may be found”
    Jer. 29:13 - "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me
    with all your heart."
    Hos. 10:12 – “it is time to seek the Lord”
    Zeph. 2:3 - “Seek the Lord”
    Acts 17:27 - “so that they should seek the Lord”
    2 Cor. 3:12-18 - “Whoever turns to the Lord”
    Heb. 11:6 - “He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him”

    Shame on you Darrel, and your ilk, who make God out to be a puppet-master or robot builder.

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    1. Context is everything Glenn, the verses you list you pull out of their original context in an attempt to fit your theology. As for seeking God, why is it you avoid this text - "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3

      How are men able to seek Glenn? Again, it goes back to the doctrine of regeneration, which you vehemently deny. God must quicken before any can seek or understand - do read John 3:3 and Ephesians 2:1,5, 8,9

      All the verses you list, then claim they indicate 'choice' is not true. You are practicing eisegesis - adding to the text something it does not say. Let's just take one verse, John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
      Keep in mind, the Bible was not written in English. The literal rendition of it can be read at http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-24.htm
      There, you will see 'hearing and believing' go hand in hand. It doesn't say you have the ability to choose anywhere in that text. Do bear in mind Romans 1:16, also bear in mind the ministerial work of God the Spirit. He is the one who regenerates, He is the one who opens the deaf ear and the blind eye. After one is regenerated THEN they seek. Your problem is that you seem to think English was the original language in which the Bible was written.

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    2. It's sad that because you cannot defend your theology, other than pulling verses out of context, you resort to name calling. With that said, it would appear you follow Charles Finney and NOT Jesus Christ.

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  11. No Lyn,
    They are all in context. It is YOUR theology which takes them out of context. Man is only regenerated by the Holy Spirit who comes to reside in Him the moment he places his faith in Christ as the Savior. That is what the Bible says. Not one iota of my citations are out of context. You and those who practice the Augustinian theology have to re-interpet all of them.

    If Christ says that the one who hears and believes shall have everlasting life, that implies first that one has to choose to listen. THAT IS A CHOICE! And I never even intimated that I thought English was the original language - how DARE you make such a suggestion, which borders on false witness.


    I don't follow Finney, not even close to his teachings. I follow just what the Bible says. My theology was formed strictly from Scripture before I ever heard of Reformed theology, Calvin, Arminius, et al. Funny how when I later studied the ante-nicene fathers that they seemed to agree with me, and not with the Johnny-come-lately theologies such as Augustine, Calvin, Luther, et al.

    I have been studying the Word of God for over 40 years, and have studies hundreds of top-notch scholars - including hordes of Calvinists - so I am very familiar with all the various view points. I have interlinear Bibles with the original languages and study the with Bible dictionaries, and lexicons and a whole ton of commentaries. I have over 1000 volumes in my personal library of theological and apologetic studies and have read every one of them. Don't treat me like an idiot.

    Now, this is the last comment from me on this topic. You have taken this string way off the topic of the article. You can continue all you want but I am unsubscribing from the comment string.

    Have a nice day.

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  12. Actually Glenn, all you did was rattle off some verses, out of context. Where in the original language do we find the word 'choice', or 'choose' in the text? I checked biblehub.com, and I found nothing to back what you claim as far as the original language goes.
    As far as how we treat one another, I must say your treatment of anyone who disagrees with you goes beyond the borders of the bible. Bragging about how long you've 'studied' God's word seems to be questionable as well...when presented with the facts of man's depravity, for example, and going into the original language in Jeremiah 17:9, you were proven wrong concerning the depravity of all men. Yet, you insist you study, I only ask what are the sources of your studies? English translations that do not always accurately translate from the original?
    All the studying in the world is pointless if you refuse to be teachable. Scripture clearly teaches about election, depravity, the need for regeneration, etc. and you ignore them all. Do you rip out verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Glenn? " But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
    I have only provided you with texts from God's word, as well as definitions of the Greek/Hebrew words, and you can only respond by stating this is Calvinistic. You give Calvin credit with what God has written....amazing indeed.

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  13. Darn, I didn't get to the unsubscribe and this popped into my inbox, and it irritated me enough to respond.

    The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible either, but we use it. Choice is implied every time you are told to do this or that - that means a choice. And all those passages which I posted gives a person a choice between two things. And, by the way, just a quick scan shows that the very 1st verse I gave uses the word "choose." "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve." And the choice is between God or false gods/idols. Every command given to us entails a moral choice between what God says and what man says. And yet you say we have no ability to choose to follow God. So I guess God lies when he tells us to do so while at the same time withholding the ability to do so. Nice trickery with your God.

    And just how did I treat you wrongly - by labeling you a Calvinist because you spew the Augustinian/Calvinist teaching?

    And I wasn't "bragging" - my point was to refute your treatment of me as if I'm an ignorant idiot. I was demonstrating that I am far from being ignorant of the subject. But rather than actually understand the point I was making you immediately jumped to the conclusion I that I was bragging.

    You've NEVER proven anything I've said to be wrong - you merely assert that the meanings you apply to the passages are the correct ones, and yet that meaning has been rebutted by many, many scholars who have debated Calvinists long before you or I were born.

    2 Thes 2:13 says that God chose us - i.e. Christians - from the beginning. God chose the way of salvation and gave the condition of such salvation - i.e. faith in Christ - and in his foreknowledge (Rom. 8:29; 1 Pet. 1:2) as to who would choose to follow His conditions, he chose them to be saved.

    I am indeed teachable, but I refuse to accept a God who is so fickle as to be a puppeteer who gives no choices - and if you can't choose then you can't love unless God forces you to love Him. And that isn't love. Then he withholds the ability to choose for Him and yet holds you responsible for not choosing Him. What kind of love is this?!?!

    No, God didn't teach us this. Augustine taught it and Calvin regurgitated it. And with that theology, if you have no choice as to whether to accept or reject God, how do you know you are saved? You might just think you are but God didn't elect you so it doesn't matter how you believe. THAT is where your theology takes you.

    You blaspheme God by making Him into a fickle ogre playing with his puppets.

    Now we've both had our say. How about leaving this comment string to the topic of the article before you attacked my statement about people accepting Christ as their savior rather than as a mere prophet.

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  14. The whole point of this thread is to delineate between the real and the fake "Christian". It does not seem to matter to you, Glenn, how a person arrives there, just so long as he makes some sort of statement claiming salvation. Well, the pope makes that claim, so does Glen Beck, Rick Warren, Billy Graham, etc., can we assume you do also? The proof, however, is in the pudding. But your pudding is rancid, not fit for human consumption, you would rather hold the hand of your friends Arminius and Pelagius than the hand of the One you claim to love and serve. Scripture is not complicated, but your fantasies are. Since you are above responding to questions, I'll not try it again, but simply state how desperately wrong all of your thoughts are in relation to the Word of God. John 1:12 & 13 how simply, plain and straight forward does it need to be for you to understand just how wrong you are. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you..." is that too complicated for you? This whole exercise is nothing more than one big parable to you, a conundrum, a riddle, impossible to reconcile your "version" with the Word. Would you later tell us that the reason why a lost man can choose God is because there is still a spark of God within him and if he wants to find God he can? (oops, another pesky question you can't/won't answer). If you did you would be parroting Alice Baily, now there's a "go-to gal" for Biblical advise. By the way, you sound exactly like Finney. One more pesky question, if you really believed all that you have said here then how can you ever sleep again? You have the message of salvation and the power of persuasion at your finger tips and the fate of billions of souls lies in you action or lack thereof, so what will you do? Preach and persuade men to choose Christ, or defend your untenable, unbiblical nonsense that you have unleashed here? There must be thousands of people in your own home town who have not heard the Gospel from your lips, WHY? If you don't want people to talk to you like you are an "ignorant idiot" then don't talk like one. You have proven nothing but your ignorance of the Scriptures, will you prove the 'idiot' part also by continuing in rebellion?

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